Joined: Sept 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 124 Location: Bismarck Karma: 487
Welcome back Herschel! « Thread Started on Apr 24, 2008, 10:31pm »
So I see the Vikings have decided to try to go back to those glory days of the late 80's and early 90's ....wait, no....WHAT?!?! You have got to be freakin' kiddin me! Another Herschel Walker type trade! I guess the Ownership/Coach braintrust doesn't need to learn from the mistakes of ones that went before them. As I said with the Herschel Walker Trade back then, if it gets us a Super Bowl in the next 2-3 years it was probably worth it, but if it doesn't we are so fucking hosed! AGAIN! Now of course it was our defense that struggled last year, oh wait no that was the offense that struggled, BUT the defenses clear weakness was its front line, ummmm nope, it was the secondary. So the mental giants in charge dump a ton of draft picks and a bunch of money & cap room on fuzzy dice instead of fixing the engine. sounds about right.
Re: Welcome back Herschel! « Reply #1 on Apr 25, 2008, 6:44am »
Ok first of all they got Gus this year!! Hands down he is going to lead the mighty Vikes to the super bowl!!haha..Anyway they made some other offensive moves over the offseason that could be beneficial. One defensive end is hurt from last year, and the other has Leukemia, so making this move and getting rid of the shitty 17th pick and the two 3rd round pics was a great move I think. What the hell else they gonna do with that shitty pick in the first round. Take a chance on some guy that hasnt proven himself? hardly...Getting a proven pro bowl player was a great move for the Vikes.
Re: Welcome back Herschel! « Reply #2 on Apr 25, 2008, 9:43am »
This was a great move by the Vikings. The Vikings have wasted a bunch of #1 picks in the past 10 years looking for a bonafide DE to rush the passer(Derrick Alexander, Demitrius Underwood, Kenechi Udeze, Erasmus James any of these guys ring a bell?). We haven't had a good one since Chris Doleman. Jared Allen instantly changes that. We get a top 3 DE in the league who is just entering his prime and we gave up 2 picks to get him. Don't kid yourself, the Vikings were locked in to taking what ever unproven rookie fell to pick #17 whether it was Philip Merling or Calaise Cambell or some other stiff. So we used two 3rd round picks to 'move up' to draft the best DE available, a guy who has averaged 10+ sacks a year for his career! We still have 6 picks in the draft and retain all our picks next year. Allen instantly makes the secondary better as they shouldn't have to cover receivers for 6 seconds anymore. I don't care if you have Deion Sanders, Rod Woodson and Ronnie Lott in your secondary, if your front four can't generate any pass rush they won't be able to cover either and THATS been the problem not a lack of talent in the defensive back field. Comparing this trade to the Walker trade is absurd. We give a 1st and 2 3rds (which we were going to use on a DE ANYWAY) for a stud in his prime, in no way compares to trading 8 picks(THREE 1st ROUNDERS) and 5 players for a decent player on the back end of his career. Not even close.
Joined: Sept 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 124 Location: Bismarck Karma: 487
Re: Welcome back Herschel! « Reply #3 on Apr 25, 2008, 11:00am »
oh, I forget how young the viewership to this forum is, and the mentioning Herschel Walker I might as well be talking about the war of 1812. It's funny how people argue that any player taken in the 1st and 3rd rounds would be an awful player, but all the other picks are going to be great. The vikings really NEED a QB #1 I know a bunch of you guys drink the kool-aid and whatever the vikings do MUST be the most brilliant decision ever, and that if tarface is good enough for childress, well he is good enough for you. The fact is a serviceable defensive end could be had for a lot less, good or even great QB's they are a lot harder to come by. The vikings should have went out and got a 3/4 ton pickup for DE, they decided to get a Ferrarri. They should have spent that on a QB. Certainly not all 1st round picks are great, dimitrius driftwood being a stellar example, but they Vikes in particular have also had some recent success, some of you youngins may not believe this, but Randy Moss was actually drafted by Minnesota, not New England! Somehow last year they managed to have a moment of clarity and drafted AP, should have traded him for a 4th rounder and a case of Schmidt probably as Childress was loath to play him even when he was healthy. The fact is, I would love it if somehow all of a sudden a QB appeared out of nowhere, one just good enough, or just not bad enough (think trent dilfer for Baltimore in 2000) that wouldn't turn the ball over 5 times a game. So now we have to try our luck with a late rounder at QB and that is usually at least a couple year process, or we have to pick one up from another team, usually one well past there prime or who never had a prime. Once again, I would loved to be proved wrong, and if the Vikes even make it to the Super Bowl in the next 3 years I will consider that being proved wrong. (note if someone does something stupid like give US a ton of pics for some crappy player like - well tarface would be nice - then that would offset it, but I don't see that happening either.)
Re: Welcome back Herschel! « Reply #4 on Apr 25, 2008, 12:06pm »
Yes, Jason you are so much older then me.
Well since you seem to have it figured out, lets hear specifically who the Vikings should have gotten instead?
You mention a QB, ok lets talk QB for a bit. Fact is the Vikings were NOT going to draft a QB in the first round, in fact I would argue out side of Matt Ryan there isn't one worthy of being drafted in the 1st round. So that leaves getting a QB in free agency. Who was available this off season at QB for the Vikings to pick up..............................BZZZZT times up, the correct answer is noone, unless you are a big Joey Harrington or Byran Leftwhich fan.
Like it or not the Vikings for this season are committed to T-Jack so QB was NEVER an option for the Vikings this year in the 1st round. Wasn't going to happen.
You say a serviceable DE could have been had for much less and are easier to find? Again I ask WHO?? Who are these serviceable DE's you talk about? If a good difference making DE is so easy to find, why haven't the Vikings had one in over 10 years??
You mention the recent success the Vikings have had in the 1st round recently and use Randy Moss as an example?? He was drafted TEN years ago, and he wasn't a DE end either.
The Vikings NEEDED a DE and instead of taking a chance on an unproven rookie they make a trade for one of the 3 best DE's in the entire league.
Sure they might still need a QB(although I think Jackson will be just fine) and they could very well still draft one in the 2nd rnd or later, either way the QB this year was alwys going to be Jackson, so how you figure addressing the absolute biggest need of the team right now with Jared Allen is a bad thing is beyond me.
A quick check of Viking draft history reveals the following players were all selected in the top 3 rounds by the Vikings the last ten years and all were defensive ends.
Erasmus James Kenechi Udeze Darrion Scott Michael Boireau Demetrius Underwood Stalin Colinet
Thats 6 picks on one position in the top three rounds (3 of them were 1st rounders) and not one good player among them. Yup, good defensive ends are real easy to find.
There is a reason why guys like Dwight Freeney, Julius Peppers, Jared Allen get paid rediculous amounts of money in the NFL. It's because players that are dominant like they are at their position are VERY hard to find.
Joined: Sept 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 124 Location: Bismarck Karma: 487
Re: Welcome back Herschel! « Reply #5 on Apr 25, 2008, 3:02pm »
Wow! the Dolphins were shopping all around trying to get out of the 1st pick, finally gave up, several of the top 10 pickers are looking to trade down, so no, it wouldn't have been that hard to move up a few spots for a QB or a DE Without throwing 3 picks and a ton of money. The facts are there are a handfull of good DE's in this years draft that they wouldn't have had to sacrifice anywhere near as much as what they did. Had they traded those picks for say someone like Brady Quinn or Anderson since Cleveland doens't know which one to start, I could have seen that as they desperately need a QB and I think cleveland would have been happy to have a couple extra picks AND get rid of a brewing QB controversy. Same deal with trading up for the Best QB in the class, even if they had to give up about the same amount, at least you can understand it for a QB with the situation we are in, giving that up for a D-lineman (especially one with off the field issues when supposedly ziggy stardust says that stuff won't be brought in here or allowed here) on an allready solid line, it just doesn't make sense.
Re: Welcome back Herschel! « Reply #6 on Apr 25, 2008, 3:27pm »
I'll cut you a little slack Jason as you are obviously just a causual fan.
The Dolphins wanted to move out of the first pick and it's reported that so do some other teams like Oakland and St. Louis. why is that? Because this years draft class there is NO bonafide, can't miss type player that teams want to draft and then pay 20-30 million guaranteed before they play one NFL snap.
That just cements what the Vikings did as a great move even more. Why would you want to package the same amount of picks to move up to #9 (thats what the picks given up would have graded out to by the way) and then select a DE prospect that is totally unproven and most likely wouldn't contribute this year much anyway. (who was the last rookie DE to make a serious impact?? Julious Peppers or Javon Kearse?) and on top of that pay them a ton of money. At least with Allen we are getting an ELITE DE who not only is a beast at rushing the passer hecan also play the run. Makes ZERO sense to do that as you would suggest.
As for your QB choices. I'm as big a football fan as there is, but your going to have to remind me exactly what BRady Quinn has accomplsihed in the NFL so far. The guy can't beat out Derrick Anderson (who was not a free agent, so to get him you'd have to trade as much as we did for Allen). But for argument sake let's pretend the Vikings did trade their 1st and 2 3rds for either one of the Browns QB's. Now what? In Quinn we now have an uproven QB with ZERO experience and we still have the biggest hole on the team unaddressed at DE. With Anderson, we'd have a guy while played pretty good at times last year but reminds me of a Scott Mitchell type player. A one hit wonder. To get him would have cost us at least the same amount in draft picks and then we would have had to sign him to a new contract and pay him a ton of money like Allen, except Allen is way more of a proven player at a position of greater need for the Viking franchise RIGHT NOW.
I've already shown you the odds of finding an impact DE in the first round is unlikely, so your stance of trading up (which costs draft picks too by the way) to get one of the rookies who haven't done ANYTHING yet just doesn't hold water.
You still can't argue the fact that despite your disdain for Jackson, he was/is going to be the QB NO MATTER WHAT this season. Funny how you can be so down on him despite the fact that he had ZERO help last year in the pass game yet Anderson,who you like has great receivers and TE's to throw too. Think that might make a difference?? (Jackson has a better completion % then Anderson as well, in case you were wondering) Maybe you didn't watch much Viking football last season, but I seen every snap and the Vikings receivers were single handedly responsible for 2 losses last year because they dropped perfectly thrown passes for TD's. Troy Williamson ring a bell?
Still waiting for you to drop some names in free agency that the Vikings were supposed to grab at DE and/or QB. Do a little checking around, you might be surprise at who was available.
06: Mario Williams (1st over all pick)--4.5 Tamba Hali--8.0
05: David Pollack--4.5 Erasmus James--4.0
04: Will Smith--7.5 Kenechi Udeze--5.0
03: Ty Warren--1.0 Michael Haynes--2.0 Jerome McDougle--0 Calvin Pace--1.0
02: Julius Peppers--12.0 Dwight Freeney--13
01: Justin Smith--8.5 Andre Carter--6.5 Jamal Reynolds--2.0
Again, more evidence that rookie DE's don't usually set the world on fire their first season, and nobody is going to claim this years class has prospects the likes of Peppers or Freeney or even Amrio Williams.
The smart move if you can do it, is find youself an established player at that position and get him if you can. Guess what? The Vikings just did that.
Joined: Sept 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 124 Location: Bismarck Karma: 487
Re: Welcome back Herschel! « Reply #8 on Apr 25, 2008, 5:13pm »
Once again, we don't need a DE that will set the world on fire, but yes there are a couple of DE's in this years class that have the potential to be all that AND the bag of chips.
Once again, we don't need a DE that will set the world on fire, but yes there are a couple of DE's in this years class that have the potential to be all that AND the bag of chips.
And once again you prove to have no idea on the current status of the team. You're a decent guy so I'll educate you for free this time. Ready? Here goes.
The Vikings imploy the Tampa-2 defense. Now this defense is predicated on the front four (Thats the defensive tackles and ends) being able to generate a pass rush with out blitzing the LBers. that way the LBers and CB's can play their zones along with the safeties behind them. Now when you fail to creat pressure without blitzing you allow the opposing offense to wait for the receivers to find the holes in the zone coverage and you get what we've been seeing the last several years. And when you have a defense thats as good against the run as the Vikings are, teams typically just abandand the run and throw the ball at will.
See, now this is where a player like Jared Allen makes a world of difference. He creates matchup problems along the offensive line and you force teams to pick their poison. Team should no longer be able to single block on the outside and double team our great DT's, thus making everyone's job on the D-line that much easier to get to the QB. Furthermore, if you establish a bonafide pass rush teams will have to compensate by keeping extra blockers in to help block be it a TE or RB thus taking more players out of the pattern and limiting the options for the QB. With having more guys back in coverage now (remember, we shouldn't have to blitz as much to create pressure) our pass coverage units will be that much better as well due to they no longer have to cover guys for extended periods of time. The entire scheme is based on being able to get to the QB with out blitzing, thus the need for a stud pass rusher is paramount in the Vikings scheme.
So to suggest a rookie would have been the way to go versus getting an elite guy and expecting the same results is just foolish. No, no. No need to thank me, I understand. Most people have a very elementary understanding of the game outside of fantasy football. I'm glad to help.
Oh and one other thing, the DE prospects in this draft are not all that. Even Howie Long's kid is not comparable to Dwight Freeney or a Julius Peppers. However, the guy we ended up getting with our 1st round pick, IS ALL THAT AND A BAG OF CHIPS!
So I see the Vikings have decided to try to go back to those glory days of the late 80's and early 90's ....wait, no....WHAT?!?! You have got to be freakin' kiddin me! Another Herschel Walker type trade! .
I wanted to come back to this little tid bit. I do have to ask since you brought it up. Do YOU remember the Walker trade and what it all entailed?
I ask, because it seems like you don't. Comparing a trade that invloved aquiring a player for a 1st and 2 3rd rnd picks to one that involved 3 1st rnd pick, 3 2nd rnd picks, a 3 rnd pick as well as a 6th I believe along with FIVE players in return or one guy who was past his prime and easily considered on the back side of his career seems to be just a bit of a stretch to me.
Joined: Sept 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 124 Location: Bismarck Karma: 487
Re: Welcome back Herschel! « Reply #11 on Apr 25, 2008, 10:31pm »
Hershell walker was not perceived to be on the "backslide" of his career, here is where a pup like you probably gets confused. He was coming off 2 or 3 awesome years, he was only like 26 or 27 when the vikings got him, most people considered him in his prime at that time (sound familiar like a DT in the news lately) Plus his first few years he was in the USFL (long story I won't get into for you youngins) and he didn't take anywhere near the abuse there that an NFL running back takes, so a lot of people thought that would lengthen his career also. Also Hershel Walker won a thing even you kids out there may have heard of, called the Heisman trophy, not to mention he had HUGE name recognition. This is stuff unless you were old enough to not still be watching scooby-doo you wouldn't remember. Are the numbers of draft picks traded identical to that of the Walker deal? NO, but this has become a pretty common reference to a trade that is overly one sided which this one is. As far as coming back to something lets come back to your love of Tarface. The fact that you still think he is or will be a great QB clearly demonstrates you've drank too much kool-aid. I love the Vikings but I am not going to eat any old shit they manage to shovel on a silver plate. Also you were the one that brought up that the vikings have had shitty first round picks the last 10 years, I point out Moss from EXACTLY 10 years ago, then you say well that is ancient history, look at the much more recent example of demetrius driftwood from 9 years ago. BILL lay off the Kool-aid.
Re: Welcome back Herschel! « Reply #12 on Apr 26, 2008, 12:28am »
You know, if you're going to debate someone about something, it's usually a good idea to have a clue about what your talking about.
Walker never had 3 awsome seasons in his entire NFL career, yet alone 2 or 3 before he was traded to the Vikings.
He only broke 1000 yrds twice in 12 years and only ONCE with Dallas. I would hardly call his any of his seasons 'Awsome' except the 1988 season. Every other season in the NFL was mediocre at best! So if anything, he was more of a one hit wonder then a real good NFL player. As a self proclaimed 'historian of the game' I figured you would have know that. My bad. By the time he was traded to the Vikings he had played 3 years in the USFL and 3+ yrs in Dallas. 6+ years is a lot of milage on a RB I don't care who you are.
According to you USFL players played touch or flag football, there was no physical contact in that league huh? Are you for real?
Walker won the Heisman, ok...................your point being what? Someone wins that award every year? Are you trying to say that because he won that award (IN COLLEGE, THIS IS ABOUT THE PROS btw) that somehow made him worth all those draft picks? Gino Torreta won it too. (He was a QB in the early 90's from Miami as I know you have no clue who he is) and how did his career turn out? Winning the Heisman doesn't guarantee jack shit in the NFL. Don't believe me? Ask Eric Crouch. (you can look that one up yourself)
May I suggest you try watching some football this year and imrove you grasp of the game some. You clearly have lost touch.
And where did I ever say that I had such 'love' for T-Jack? I only acknowledged that I don't think he'll be that terrible. He's certainly better then Brooks Bollinger or Brad JOhnson. I also recognized the fact that he was going to be the QB no matter what this season, thus the need to draft a QB in the 1st round wasn't there. Something you obviously missed somewhere along the way.
Still waiting for some names that you figure were such better options.
Joined: Sept 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 124 Location: Bismarck Karma: 487
Re: Welcome back Herschel! « Reply #13 on Apr 26, 2008, 11:26am »
Wow, just make up some shit why don't you, I never said the USFL didn't have contact. Most peoople back then felt the level of play was a lot inferior to the NFL and that a back might not be taking the punishment as he would in the NFL. Walker made the pro bowl the previous 2 years in the NFL, I guess thats mediocre by your standards, but not everyone was a great a player as you were. Unlike you I never claimed to be the all knowing swami of football, I just remembered a bad deal that was passed off as the greatest thing that could ever happen to us, kind of like this one is being passed off as. Because tarface is going to be the QB even though he stinks is the reason NOT to draft a QB, that makes so little sense it makes my head hurt. You say now that Hershel was a one year wonder, which is my point exactly, even though he wasn't, but looking back and considering what was given up for him thats what a lot of people might remember or mis-remember as the rocket might say. Being a one year wonder is exactly what I am afraid of in this deal, they spent a bunch of picks and money one the "sure-thing" there are no sure things in the NFL, especially when you consider this guys off the field problems. Hell one incident up in minnesota and he will almost certainly be suspended the for 4 games minimum. We'll see how many sacks this guy gets when he is sitting in league imposed rehab.
Re: Welcome back Herschel! « Reply #14 on Apr 26, 2008, 11:48am »
You finally get ONE thing right, there are no SURE things in the NFL, yet you posted you would have rather given up the same picks and moved up and drafted a DE prospect in todays draft (you can't get more unproven then that), when for the same picks we got a guy who not only is proven but already is considered ELITE!
Sure there is risk involved but there is risk in every move you make, you try and make the best educated decision you can and get the surest thing you possibly can. Jared Allen fits that to a T. You don't like the move, fine, but you are sure in the minority and it's no surprise with the logic and convoluted thinking you employ.
Thats some real sound logic on your part.
Still waiting for you to drop some names on who would be better, or are you waiting for the draft to actually learn who some of the prospects are in the draft?
Someone who is supposedly in the 'know' I would think would have some idea who is/was available being he's making it such a point to argue for the drafting or signing of someone other then who the Vikings got.
Joined: Sept 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 124 Location: Bismarck Karma: 487
Re: Welcome back Herschel! « Reply #15 on Apr 26, 2008, 11:55am »
Once again, your convoluted thinkin that says we have a bad QB, so why draft a QB can't differentiate between picks can't figure out what I said. I said if they had given that up for a QB I would have been fine or had they given up close to that to move up and then take a DE I could live with it. It is your convoluted thinking that you are the all knowing football genius (why you aren't on jerry jones payroll I will never know) that thinks the Tamp two is so named because of a 4 man line. The tampa two is named for the cover 2 it generally employs, The tampa two is basically "known" for its speed, gang tackling mentality and fast/undersized players. but I know you throw this stuff out there to get off topic as you know the truth that the vikings wasted a bunch of pics on this alchy.
Re: Welcome back Herschel! « Reply #16 on Apr 26, 2008, 12:30pm »
LOL
"The Tampa 2 typically consists of four linemen, three linebackers, two cornerbacks, and two safeties. The scheme is known for its simple format, speed, and the aggressive mentality of its players. Although it lacks the complexity of other defenses, it instead relies heavily on the attitudes of its players and tremendous team speed. Tampa 2 teams are known as gang tacklers and practice to always run to the ball. It also requires a hard hitting secondary to cause turnovers.
The personnel used in the Tampa 2 are specific in position and required abilities. All positions in this defense place a premium on speed, and often the result is that they are all undersized by league standards. The defensive linemen in this scheme have to be quick and agile enough to create pressure on the quarterback without the aid of a blitz from either the linebackers or the secondary, with the defensive tackle in the nose position having above-average tackling skills to help stop the run."
Like I said *on post #9* of this thread, "the Tampa-2 is predicated on being able to generate a pass rush from the front four with out having to blitz LBers ect."
Yup, I'm the one who doesn't know what I'm talking about. Nice try, enjoy the draft, I know I will, we already got the best player available.
Joined: Sept 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 124 Location: Bismarck Karma: 487
Re: Welcome back Herschel! « Reply #17 on Apr 26, 2008, 1:23pm »
Lets see all the positions require speed, aggressiveness, so therefore it is predicated on the line, whatever you have to tell yourself to help the kool-aid go down.
Re: Welcome back Herschel! « Reply #18 on Apr 28, 2008, 2:15pm »
Being reading comprehension obviously isn't your strong suit, I'll quit trying to explain basic football 101 with ya.
On another note, Jacksonville did a Herchell Walker(by Jasons definition) trade in sat's draft.
"Harvey's selection was the first surprise of the draft. The Jags traded four picks with the Baltimore Ravens to get a shot at the redshirt junior. Jacksonville gave up its 26th pick in the first round, two third-round picks (71st and 89th overall) and a fourth-round pick."
![[Home]](http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:3hqOEqs5384l_M:http://www.safetyape.com/images/sab-home.gif)
![[Help]](http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:R4FExA13WuhV2M:http://maximus.sandag.org/tfic/images2030/help_help.gif)
![[Search]](http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:fve5AR9f57E-GM:http://www.biochem.mcw.edu/images/fb_search.gif)
![[Login]](http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:uOfeisfwPNmcRM:http://store.pipefusion.com/html/images/blueyellow/top_login.gif)
![[Register]](http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:gQLzHsvv_QZF9M:http://buymost.com/title_e/m_register.gif)
![[Search This Thread]](http://s1.images.proboards.com/search2.gif)
![[Send Topic To Friend]](http://s1.images.proboards.com/buttons/sendtopic.gif)
![[Print]](http://s1.images.proboards.com/buttons/print.gif)
Author
![[homepage]](http://s1.images.proboards.com/buttons/www_sm.gif)
Logged